Standard post - buyer's risk

That's good to know about tracked parcels, because I could see some buyers claiming compensation from the courier and seeking a Ping refund. However, the TM page says it has to be shown as "signed for", not just left by the courier, to be covered.

However, TM's page for Ping Buyer Protection clearly states that one of the reasons for possibly getting a refund is that "the item hasn't been delivered by the seller". If tracked parcels aren't covered by this, the only other means of delivery (other than in person) is standard post.

westham60

Yes, it is very pointless and always has been, especially if tracked, there is no buyers Risk, It is the sellers responsibility to make sure parcel gets from A-B safely, I avoid auctions that state that, so you are not doing yourself any favors by saying it, as it is a VOID Statement, and just says problem seller, avoid seller to be honest as seller unlikely to be helpful, 

Especially Standard Mail, sellers must refund

Until parcel is safely in the buyers hands, it is your responsibility to file claims with carrier involved if it has been damaged or not delivered, to get a refund, or if Courier will not refund, or send replacement item where possible or you must refund the buyer yourself,

When buyers bid on your auctions they form a contract with you, therefore it is your responsibility if buyer does not receive their items, Items get damaged in transit etc. You must be proactive follow up, raise claims until resolved,

This is why before tracking was compulsory, I always used tracked, as  untracked too many claims items not received and had to refund buyers, But tracking items made it easier to identify those making false claims, and they stopped,

even stuff that can I can sent in envelopes as Standard Mail is now tracked only,

An if you are sending non paper items in envelopes that is a no no, as franking machines will eat them, they will not make it to the buyer at all in a lot of cases, so if you sent a non Paper item over thickness too, you will need to refund,

westham60,

Standard Post is not covered by theft of parcel.

Tracked parcels the Seller has to make a claim with the shipping company, not the Buyer - The shipping company will only reimburse the Sender not the receiver. However theft of delivered parcels aren't covered under Buyer Protection.

Under the CGA sellers are responsible for all items, Tracked or untracked,

where sellers should refund where items not delivered or follow up if damaged,

If stolen that is out of sellers hands, but if you send things untracked, you must expect claims from buyers and take proactive steps to remedy, and refund as no proof of delivery or non delivery, that is a risk the seller has taken upon them selves, to send untracked, Hence why we all send tracked now,

and NZ post has added tracking to all bags etc. too many false claims, as years ago I was refunding a buyer but they got caught out making false claims,

Please stop making this a Ping issue, where ping will just refund, no, this is a seller issue, Seller must take responsibility,

They took the risk sending item untracked, so therefore they are responsible to replace or refund under the CGA.

edited: Sorry S your comment was not showing when I came to page?

Sorry but sometimes you are not always correct, and as a seller you should also know this?, it is common sense,

CGA comes in first, it is only then if seller does not play ball, and will not help resolve then ping "may" or may not step in.

as buyer has a contract with seller, seller forms a contract with Postal service, or selected carrier. 

But straight off it is not a Ping issue. Both Buyer and Seller need to work together for a resolution both parties are happy with,

it is only if seller does not help, buyer will only then need to file a dispute, if still no joy from seller, then Trade Me may refund via Ping,

Thank you S and flossy63 for your comments.

The majority of my sales are low price stamps ($1-2) which no buyer is going to be willing to pay tracking of $6.40 or $12.10 (if rural) to have sent. But I take your point regarding the buyer's risk statement being meaningless, and will start removing it from my listings, but also to include the tracked option, making it compulsory for the occasional purchase that is over $50.

I will say that the TM system which prevents you from putting a $ sign in the shipping description is pretty silly.

Sorry Flossy I didn't start with Ping, the OP did and I responded with the Buyer Protection which they found help from. - There are nice ways to support members in community when there is a mistake made - we are all human and working in different files. I thanked you for your first comment to me, I don't deserve further.

Thanks westham60,

I pleased you're sorted - All the Best with your sales😊

I still believe like Westham60 has mentioned that shipping costs should be compulsory on all auctions with "ping".What's the point of being covered from a buyers perspective if ping is used & of course all auctions now have "ping" as a option if there's no shipping in the shipping details.Many traders avoid the ping fee by stating it in the auction description itself which makes a mockery of the "buyer protection" as buyers won't make two payments,one for ping & then the shipping balance to their bank accounts.Yes I agree TradeMe should have left "bank deposit/transfer" as a option but it's not so we have a circus of a site instead !

Hi S,

I'm interested in your statement "Post by mail isn't covered under Buyer Protection if there's no signature required tracking attached to confirm if parcel is lost or delivered and possibly stolen from the mailbox, porch etc."

I have a current issue at the moment that Im trying to navigate and I think this might be useful and help. Are you able to provide a link to the policy on this? 

Kia ora AJ, generally speaking it is the seller's responsibility to make sure that items are delivered. However it depends on the dispute and what information is available. So, while tracking and signature required make it easier to determine delivery, it's not necessarily the case that untracked items won't be covered under Buyer Protection. 

Thanks Michelle,

Kia Ora AJ, 

NZ Post won't entertain a claim without tracked signature required attached where tracking shows the item is delivered.

Buyer Protection Policy -  What's protected

Private sales aren’t covered by the Consumer Guarantees Act or the Fair Trading Act.

Private Sellers indicating that opting for standard mail is at the Buyer's risk means the Buyer assumes responsibility for any loss or damage during shipping and that is the contract entered into.

I've removed my first Post which also held relevant information for the OP so as not to confuse information - I responded to a Private Seller using Buyer's risk in their Listings.

OK, this most recent message changes things considerably - my "buyer's risk" statement is valid. 

Keyword in relation to Non-Delivery is in the first sentence, " You 'May' be eligible... "

It doesn't say you won't be so it is misleading to say items are not covered by NZ Post as it's in there own Terms and Conditions and incorporated into NZ Postal Services Legislation. 

New Zealand Post have traditionally been very helpful when items may have gone astray in the system.

It's a known fact they used to have a problem with some staff in sorting rooms stealing cash and cheques out of envelopes, including from Charities in earlier times, now we are all paying the price for the minority.

There also used to be the occasional postie not delivering mail, now how often do they deliver mail?

Thank you S and Michelle for your responses. You've confirmed my understanding.

westham60 - not necessarily

Just to hopefully clarify what maybe confusing - excluding the buyer and seller, there are 2 players involved where it comes to this.

1 - NZ Post. If the item is sent UNTRACKED, NZ Post will not provide any compensation for an item not delivered. I guess the reason for this is there is no evidence of an item being sent, whereas tracked items have the evidence.

2 - trademe. If a dispute is raised due to non-delivery of a UNTRACKED item because the buyer and seller cannot resolve, trademe MAY refund the buyer under the buyer protection. Similar to why NZ Post don't provide any compensation, the problem with an UNTRACTED item is there is no evidence that the item was either sent, or received. TradeMe has said that the onus is on the seller to ensure the item is delivered and without the tracking evidence, the seller cannot prove it was indeed sent.

So a "buyers risk" might still be relevent for a NZ Post compensation claim (because there is none), but as previously stated by others, it is pointless from a trademe buyer protection perspective.

Where it's proven an item has been sent this is taken into consideration during the dispute process. Standard mail can provide receipt of paid sending cost with Photo evidence of envelope clearly showing Buyers given address being sent to. - Standard mail is sent by stamps or prepaid envelopes, excepted contents are paper based - weighing less than 1 kg - max dimensions of 260mm high x 385mm long x 20mm thick. - very easily photographed with a stamp on clearly showing the Buyers given address, a receipt and being dropped into a Post collection box or in store same as pre-paid envelopes with clear Buyers given address can be photographed and shown as being sent. - Many Sellers take photograph evidence of this for the very purpose of dispute cases and will send the Buyer the photo confirming they've written the correct address on the envelope and even on parcels being sent.

Where Ping T&C's and the 'What's covered' clause in Buyer Protection statements of 'when the item is delivered' and whether signature required was requested exist, Tracked parcels are also considered in the dispute process where proven as delivered through the shipping company as well as providing sent receipts and envelope or parcel with Buyers given address shown. 

In yet another Help file we have...

And then we come back to the Buyer Protection Policy...

TM T&C's...

Listing terms agreed to including Q&A section - contract formed.

A lot of information in many different Help files and many different considerations given in a dispute process.

AJ echoes my concern.

In the previous post from S with the various quotes from TM, the underlined section "unless you and the buyer agree otherwise" I feel is  (or should be) significant.

Where the selling conditions state that "standard post is at buyer's risk" and the person goes ahead with the purchase under those conditions, are they not agreeing to those conditions and forming a "contract" where the buyer assumes the risk for NZPost losing the letter (and letters, not parcels, is all I have ever been asking about).